Comment on Julius Rachel Substack on Melian Dialogue
Great thanks for this illuminating and highly relevant story from Greek history. I’d like to add some further context to it, if I may, in two episodes, the earlier so-called Mytilenean Debate and the subsequent, and disastrous, Sicilian Expedition.
The historian Thucydides relates how, in 427 BC, one of Athens’ allies the city-state of Mytilene on the island of Lesbos, attempted and failed at a revolt from Athenian hegemony. Making a longer story short, the decision was made by the Athenian Assembly to punish the people of Mytilene by executing all the men and enslaving the women and children. The Athenians immediately sent a ship to Mytilene to authorize their commander on-site to carry out the harsh decision.
Overnight, according to Thucydides, the citizenry of Athens had a change of heart and held a second debate between two prominent citizens espousing opposing points of view. Ultimately, the harsh verdict was reversed and a second ship was dispatched; it arrived just in time to spare the lives of the Mytileneans.
The Melian Dialogue presented in this Substack article took place eleven years later. As the outcome of that dialogue shows, the Athenians’ attitudes had been considerably hardened and coarsened in the intervening years.
The arrogance (hubris in Greek) that the Athenians display in the Melian Dialogue reached its apex the very next year, when they decided to send a massive fleet to attack Sicily, whose city-states were allied with Sparta. This military expedition ended in utter disaster for Athens. Although the war with the Spartans lingered on for nearly another decade, Athens was never the same. A series of internal political upheavals and military defeats ultimately ended with the utter defeat of Athens in the year 404 BC.
An art-historical footnote: for readers unfamiliar with the name Melos, one of the most famous Greek statues, the Aphrodite of Melos, was discovered there in the 19th century. She is better known as the Venus de Milo.
This is where we in Canada stand today. Like the Trump, or hate the Trump these are dangerous times and building a strong moral position that brings us together and positions us for our own defense is paramount.
Right now, we are completely divided and to say that many Canadians do not trust our present leaders is an understatement. This means that we are an easy target. Most of our present leaders are too busy playing games to even think of what is in the citizens of Canada's best interests.
Sounds a lot like the mentality of the newly flag-waving Canadians, (not that I think the US would murder and enslave). A recent conversation with a rabidly "Orange Man Bad" devotee heard him claiming that Trump wants to "take over the WORLD!" meanwhile oafishly refusing to look at what the criminals in our own "government" are involved in. As a 4th generation Albertan, I WANT OUT of this abusive relationship with the Corporation of Canada, whether that means statehood or complete independence.
In 2022, shortly after the "start" of the Ukraine conflict (the real start goes back to at least 2014), I heard several references to the Peloponnesian war. One was from American military historian Victor Davis Hanson, and the other from British journalist Peter Hitchens.
Too bad those essays weren't shared widely in the media.
I feel, in my old age, I've been woken from a dream. Your Thuycidides makes me with I could stay awake a little longer, and learn more. Thank you. Rossini's SEIGE OF CORINTH on the air today. I stumbled onto your Melian Dialogues by looking it up. In March I wasn't yet subscribed.
I love that quote. One of the things of most interest to me: reaching people with vital messages - not done in this case, obviously. Being right . . . great, but hugely far from all that matters!!!
What strikes me here is the high level of diplomacy conducted by Athens and Melos, so unlike anything we have today. Contrast the Melian dialogue with what happened with Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office, which was like schoolyard bullies yelling at each other. Of course, it was the golden age of classical Greece, so people (at least the elites and leaders) were educated to a higher standard. The level of sophisticated thinking evident here, no doubt made more eloquent by Thucydides' fine writing, is a breath of fresh air. All this is quite apart from the principles debated, which alone require their own discussion. "Might makes right" can never be morally justified, yet sadly as we've seen in history, becomes a tragic fact when there's a gross power imbalance.
I tried to get Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War by interlibrary loan in Vermont- not one copy available. No wonder the people of our state are so pathetically in the grip of tyrants. Thank you!
I don't know how you went about your request, but the Fletcher Library in Burlington has two different editions: https://ffl.kohavt.org/Author/Home?author=%22Thucydides%22 I'm sure copies are available in other libraries as well. Ask a librarian to help with your search!
You might, nonetheless, want to borrow one of the other, newer volumes. Among other things, I believe the font size in the Great Books series is quite small <smile>.
I wish I had had your help researching for my book, I Am André, German Jew, French Resistance Fighter, British Spy! I would have published in 15 years, instead of 30! ( Just kidding...) Thank you TIm!
You're most welcome! I would like to supplement my recommendation of the two books at the Fletcher Free Library: the Penguin edition is basically just a translation; the Landmark Thucydides has considerable amount of maps and much other supplementary materials to help explain the background of Thucydides' complex work.
News from the Goodrich: They do not have a copy of the Thucydides...They have been relentlessly purging any books older than ten years that are not best sellers, and donations to the book sale are not allowed if over 5 years old. I will request the Landmark version at the Fletcher!
Our deluded leaders are misleading Canadians into believing they can defeat the Americans in a trade war while further deceiving them into thinking they can convince other allies to assume protection provided by the United States.
It's irresponsible to the point of dangerous.
Just to illustrate a hypothetical scenario. Assume France and the UK agree to form a modern Peloponnesian League with Canada. These two powers are nowhere near on the level Sparta was. If China or Russia were to attack Canada - or to entertain the feverish mind of Canadians , the Americans invade - the UK and France would not be able to muster strong enough armies to cross an ocean and defend Canada. Moreover, realpolitik dictates that they'd be considering their own interest in such an event. It's highly unlikely they'd risk angering greater powers for Canada.
Carney's carnival is Melian in nature. He announced an intelligence deal with France. Even though Canada's position with Five Eyes has weakened. Rather than address loss of trust among them, he pulls this stunt. Canadians continue to not see their own inactions that not only threaten our national security but the security of allies. No one gains from a weak Canada. France is about to FAFO with how Canada operates. It's a weird move by France. Canada simply doesn't have great intelligence gathering capabilities relying on American intelligence for things like cyber security and terrorism. So, in effect, France is indirectly dealing with American intelligence. Such is the clown show we live in.
The U.S. is offering Canada very good terms. We're already fully integrated into their empire. America is looking to reassert its power and likely views the necessity of keeping Canada under control for their national interests and security. It's really just a formality offering to further entrench an economic union that's already deeply connected.
Canadians are letting emotional faux-patriotism cloud sound judgement not permitting them to look at things practically and pragmatically.
Comment on Julius Rachel Substack on Melian Dialogue
Great thanks for this illuminating and highly relevant story from Greek history. I’d like to add some further context to it, if I may, in two episodes, the earlier so-called Mytilenean Debate and the subsequent, and disastrous, Sicilian Expedition.
The historian Thucydides relates how, in 427 BC, one of Athens’ allies the city-state of Mytilene on the island of Lesbos, attempted and failed at a revolt from Athenian hegemony. Making a longer story short, the decision was made by the Athenian Assembly to punish the people of Mytilene by executing all the men and enslaving the women and children. The Athenians immediately sent a ship to Mytilene to authorize their commander on-site to carry out the harsh decision.
Overnight, according to Thucydides, the citizenry of Athens had a change of heart and held a second debate between two prominent citizens espousing opposing points of view. Ultimately, the harsh verdict was reversed and a second ship was dispatched; it arrived just in time to spare the lives of the Mytileneans.
The Melian Dialogue presented in this Substack article took place eleven years later. As the outcome of that dialogue shows, the Athenians’ attitudes had been considerably hardened and coarsened in the intervening years.
The arrogance (hubris in Greek) that the Athenians display in the Melian Dialogue reached its apex the very next year, when they decided to send a massive fleet to attack Sicily, whose city-states were allied with Sparta. This military expedition ended in utter disaster for Athens. Although the war with the Spartans lingered on for nearly another decade, Athens was never the same. A series of internal political upheavals and military defeats ultimately ended with the utter defeat of Athens in the year 404 BC.
An art-historical footnote: for readers unfamiliar with the name Melos, one of the most famous Greek statues, the Aphrodite of Melos, was discovered there in the 19th century. She is better known as the Venus de Milo.
Fantastic additional context 🙏-- a must read! ⬆️⬆️
This so too reminds me of everything happening today....a great read of lessons not yet learned.....
This is where we in Canada stand today. Like the Trump, or hate the Trump these are dangerous times and building a strong moral position that brings us together and positions us for our own defense is paramount.
Right now, we are completely divided and to say that many Canadians do not trust our present leaders is an understatement. This means that we are an easy target. Most of our present leaders are too busy playing games to even think of what is in the citizens of Canada's best interests.
We have been intentionally demoralised from at least the time of Pierre Trudeau and Maurice Strong.
I am reminded of a quote from Machiavelli (via Jerry Pournelle): "Among other evils, being unarmed causes one to be despised."
I see this playing out in Donald Trump's evident disdain for Justin Trudeau.
Sounds a lot like the mentality of the newly flag-waving Canadians, (not that I think the US would murder and enslave). A recent conversation with a rabidly "Orange Man Bad" devotee heard him claiming that Trump wants to "take over the WORLD!" meanwhile oafishly refusing to look at what the criminals in our own "government" are involved in. As a 4th generation Albertan, I WANT OUT of this abusive relationship with the Corporation of Canada, whether that means statehood or complete independence.
As a 4th generation Albertan, I agree. My fear is that my neighbors don't even see the problem. For them, all is good
Zelensky should give this a read.
It breaks my heart to think how many lives could have been saved if he had...
In 2022, shortly after the "start" of the Ukraine conflict (the real start goes back to at least 2014), I heard several references to the Peloponnesian war. One was from American military historian Victor Davis Hanson, and the other from British journalist Peter Hitchens.
Too bad those essays weren't shared widely in the media.
What a horror to read the conclusion - and to see people not take this possibility into consideration in advance. Anyway, that's what I got from this.
It's so grim! It's a sober indictment of human nature and the danger of letting our egos blind us.
When I was a kid, we had a family friend whose favorite saying was, "graveyards are full of people who were in the right."
I feel, in my old age, I've been woken from a dream. Your Thuycidides makes me with I could stay awake a little longer, and learn more. Thank you. Rossini's SEIGE OF CORINTH on the air today. I stumbled onto your Melian Dialogues by looking it up. In March I wasn't yet subscribed.
🙏
I love that quote. One of the things of most interest to me: reaching people with vital messages - not done in this case, obviously. Being right . . . great, but hugely far from all that matters!!!
What strikes me here is the high level of diplomacy conducted by Athens and Melos, so unlike anything we have today. Contrast the Melian dialogue with what happened with Trump and Zelensky in the Oval Office, which was like schoolyard bullies yelling at each other. Of course, it was the golden age of classical Greece, so people (at least the elites and leaders) were educated to a higher standard. The level of sophisticated thinking evident here, no doubt made more eloquent by Thucydides' fine writing, is a breath of fresh air. All this is quite apart from the principles debated, which alone require their own discussion. "Might makes right" can never be morally justified, yet sadly as we've seen in history, becomes a tragic fact when there's a gross power imbalance.
I tried to get Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War by interlibrary loan in Vermont- not one copy available. No wonder the people of our state are so pathetically in the grip of tyrants. Thank you!
I don't know how you went about your request, but the Fletcher Library in Burlington has two different editions: https://ffl.kohavt.org/Author/Home?author=%22Thucydides%22 I'm sure copies are available in other libraries as well. Ask a librarian to help with your search!
I did ask the librarian, at the Goodrich Memorial Library.
Guess I'll copy and print out your info for her! Small world! Thanks!
Thucydides **is** available at the Goodrich Memorial Library (in an older translation) as part of the Great Books of the Western World set: https://vtdl.agverso.com/details?agctrlid=622507&shard=5be4c484-a902-4715-8301-e5ac0f2d0b84:::p_solr_alb_02:8983%2Fsolr%2Fvtdl_cdb&searchId=5be4c484-a902-4715-8301-e5ac0f2d0b84
You might, nonetheless, want to borrow one of the other, newer volumes. Among other things, I believe the font size in the Great Books series is quite small <smile>.
I wish I had had your help researching for my book, I Am André, German Jew, French Resistance Fighter, British Spy! I would have published in 15 years, instead of 30! ( Just kidding...) Thank you TIm!
You're most welcome! I would like to supplement my recommendation of the two books at the Fletcher Free Library: the Penguin edition is basically just a translation; the Landmark Thucydides has considerable amount of maps and much other supplementary materials to help explain the background of Thucydides' complex work.
News from the Goodrich: They do not have a copy of the Thucydides...They have been relentlessly purging any books older than ten years that are not best sellers, and donations to the book sale are not allowed if over 5 years old. I will request the Landmark version at the Fletcher!
Many lessons to be learned here for Canadians.
Our deluded leaders are misleading Canadians into believing they can defeat the Americans in a trade war while further deceiving them into thinking they can convince other allies to assume protection provided by the United States.
It's irresponsible to the point of dangerous.
Just to illustrate a hypothetical scenario. Assume France and the UK agree to form a modern Peloponnesian League with Canada. These two powers are nowhere near on the level Sparta was. If China or Russia were to attack Canada - or to entertain the feverish mind of Canadians , the Americans invade - the UK and France would not be able to muster strong enough armies to cross an ocean and defend Canada. Moreover, realpolitik dictates that they'd be considering their own interest in such an event. It's highly unlikely they'd risk angering greater powers for Canada.
Carney's carnival is Melian in nature. He announced an intelligence deal with France. Even though Canada's position with Five Eyes has weakened. Rather than address loss of trust among them, he pulls this stunt. Canadians continue to not see their own inactions that not only threaten our national security but the security of allies. No one gains from a weak Canada. France is about to FAFO with how Canada operates. It's a weird move by France. Canada simply doesn't have great intelligence gathering capabilities relying on American intelligence for things like cyber security and terrorism. So, in effect, France is indirectly dealing with American intelligence. Such is the clown show we live in.
The U.S. is offering Canada very good terms. We're already fully integrated into their empire. America is looking to reassert its power and likely views the necessity of keeping Canada under control for their national interests and security. It's really just a formality offering to further entrench an economic union that's already deeply connected.
Canadians are letting emotional faux-patriotism cloud sound judgement not permitting them to look at things practically and pragmatically.
World leaders love war. Those that perish in wars are 'the cost of doing business'.
These leaders are certainly not honorable.
https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/russia/merkel-admits-minsk-agreement-was-to-trick-russia/
The same today as the bullies offer nothing but slavery and murder. You can live as a slave or die as a slave. Bullies do not care.